http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction Comments on http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction en-gb rss@thegovernmentsays.com rss@thegovernmentsays.com 1901-01-01T00:00+00:00 1 daily http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2009#comment_691 Having been born and lived in this 'FREE' society for six decades (and counting) and having found that this 'so-called' "Peoples Democracy" has become more and more intrusive, oppressive and basically 'FASCIST' I feel it is about time that I added my name to the list of "Free Born" who feel that enough is much more than enough. 'Things' have already gone way too far as it is. I therefore place on record that I will take no part in this I-D card bullshit, don't need it won't have it. So how is this increasingly FACIST state going to obtain the 'Stuff' needed from me to 'conscript' me into this "Big Brother" obscenity (?). Perhaps Putin, the generals of burma the talaban or decendents of Adolf and Stalin could offer suggestions.<br /><br />We shall have to "wait-and-see" how our 'Free and Democratic' state responds. Perhaps we shall find out just how 'Cowardly and Gutless' the Great (?) British Nation has now become http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2133#comment_684 I can't believe that I'm going to have to submit to a humiliating fingerprinting process - makes me feel like criminal already!! http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2034#comment_222 Has anyone calculated the 'carbon footprint' that the registration process will incur by requiring visits to widely spaced centres, and related it to the Government's statements on reducing the country's carbon footprint? http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2058#comment_200 Since the necessary electronic fingerprint readers would be expensive, they would only be used for high-value transactions. Although it would take criminals some effort to outwit them, it would be worth their while because of the greater benefits of forging this "higher level" of proof, and studies have shown that it's certainly possible to fool fingerprint readers. In 2002 a Japanese research team produced fake gelatine "fingers" from fingerprints left on glass that fooled all 11 sensors they tested 80% of the time.[1] In August 2006 Adam Savage and Jamie Hyneman of the TV programme "Mythbusters" used similar techniques to completely defeat high-security fingerprint door locks.[2]<br /><br /> [1] T. Matsumoto, H. Matsumoto, K. Yamada, S. Hoshino, "Impact of Artificial Gummy Fingers on Fingerprint Systems", Proceedings of SPIE Vol. #4677, Optical Security and Counterfeit Deterrence Techniques IV, 2002, http://www.cryptome.org/gummy.htm<br /><br /> [2] Mythbusters, Episode 59 "Crimes and Myth-Demeanors 2", originally aired 23rd August 2006, Discovery Channel, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZncdgwjQxm0 http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2057#comment_199 Most identity fraud isn't conducted face-to-face, but over the 'phone or Internet, with no possibility of checking ID card photos. Internet Bank Smile told The Guardian in January 2003 that "When it comes to internet banking, I don't think identity cards could help".[1] The Home Office says you could "prove your identity to someone on the telephone or over the Internet ... by supplying your card details and possibly some 'shared secret' information, like banking services use today". This seems to be an open invitation to use stolen or forged ID cards for telephone-based identity fraud, and completely misrepresents how "shared secrets" work. The whole point is that the secret is shared only between you and one organisation (such as a bank), not given to every shop, hospital or government department you 'phone, from where it could be used to impersonate you.<br /><br /> [1] S.A. Mathieson, "A born identity", The Guardian, 30 January 2003, http://technology.guardian.co.uk/online/story/0,,884668,00.html http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2056#comment_198 The Action Plan talks of making ID cards compatible with Chip-and-PIN credit card terminals to make this check available in all shops. However, in May 2006 Shell garages temporarily suspended Chip-and-PIN payments after a £1 million fraud used modified credit card terminals which recorded customers' PINs.[1] UEA criminologist Emily Finch has found that criminals have already adapted to PIN technology, and that increasing reliance on such technology makes users less vigilant, thus making fraud easier, not harder; she thinks reliance on ID cards will therefore increase fraud rates.[2]<br /><br /> [1] Paul Hales, "Chip and pin hack exposed", The Inquirer, 8 May 2006, http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=31547<br /><br /> [2] Jonathan Amos, "Criminals to 'adapt to ID cards'", BBC, 4 September 2005, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4213848.stm http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2055#comment_197 This would merely show that the card is not forged. It would not detect someone using a stolen card as their own - and there would be plenty of lost and stolen ID cards about. Even though most people guard their passports carefully, in 2004 over 300,000 UK passports were lost or stolen [1]. Ministers say they want their Identity Scheme to become the "Gold Standard" for personal identity [2], and that people should use ID cards to prove "who you are, day in, day out",[3] offering many more opportunities to lose them than occasionally-used passports.<br /><br />[1] Des Browne, Home Office questions, 21 February 2005, http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2005-02-21.204447.h [2] Des Browne, Home Office questions, 20 December 2004, http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debate/?id=2004-12-20a.1900.0<br /><br />[3] Andy Burnham, Radio 4 Today Programme, 28 March 2006, http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today1_0630_20060328.ram http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2054#comment_196 This wouldn't stop fraudsters using stolen ID cards, since people are surprisingly bad at checking photos. In a 1995 study University of Westminster researchers issued 44 students with four picture ID cards each. The cards carried a variety of photos, including a simulated "old" photo of the holder (with a different hairstyle, or addition or removal or glasses or a beard, as one might have on a five-year-old ID card) and one chosen to look like the holder from a hundred random photos of different people (as a criminal would choose from a stack of stolen ID cards). Experienced supermarket cashiers couldn't reliably tell whether students were using an "old" card or a "stolen" card. This experiment was done under optimum conditions, with experienced staff, plenty of time, and no threat of embarrassment if a card was rejected; shop assistants' real-life performance would be worse. As a result of this study, no UK credit card company now puts the holder's photo on credit cards.<br /><br />R. Kemp, N. Towell, G. Pike, "When seeing should not be believing: Photographs, credit cards and fraud" Applied Cognitive Psychology Vol 11(3) (1997) pp 211-222 http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/11942/ABSTRACT http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2190#comment_126 I think that "shared interests" masks a serious fallacy. I think its naive and dangerous, rather than Machiavellian. Business wants to know more about its customers, yes, but it's a VERY DIFFERENT INTEREST from the legitimate regulatory interest government has. When govenment treats me as a customer eg promoting sports and leisure facilities to me this is very different from what I'm prepared for the doctor or the welfare services to know about me. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2180#comment_125 But hang on, that's the ONLY half-worthwhile thing you claim The Scheme will do. So if the Gateway does it, what's the point? (Anyway, I thought Government Connent did it. So what's the point of that?) http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2178#comment_124 It's been said many times before but let's say it again. If you have to prove anything to buy fags, it's just that you're over 16. It's not who you are. It's not even your date of birth. A green light that says "OK" and tells the retailer nothing else would suffice. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2174#comment_123 Is this based on any evidence about how people want to deal with government in an e-enabled world? Or is it wishful thinking by a group of people with a certain view of the world and a reluctance to engage with others who might not share their view? Until we prove the former, I suspect the latter. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2163#comment_122 It's still all about The Scheme isnt it. It ought to be about the best and most pragmatic way to acheve The Objectives or The Benefits. In order to help The Citizen, and save the burden on The Taxpayer, who would quite like to get A Pension one day please. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2158#comment_121 My guess it wont help members of the public spot phoney officials. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2149#comment_120 Who pays whom? Does IPS contract with DWP? And most of the work will be outsourced; what is the role of the private sector? There's something mealymouthed about this report....it feels like a damage-limitation report because IPS said it'd do one, rather than a helpful and frank assessment of what we're trying to do here and what the challenges are. I wonder who the intended audience is? http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2146#comment_119 <a>Sounds like a suitable role for a former Accenture partner perhaps...suit-wearing, confident, ready to listen (a bit) but perhaps fatally weak on technology</a> http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2134#comment_118 Well I expect the private sector to <br /><br />1. take a pretty sceptical and self-serving view as to the cost-effectiveness of your service and<br /><br />2. to outmanoeuvre you pretty nimbly, especially in anything to do with online ID management services<br /><br />Somehow I dont foresee the taxpayer making a terrific return out of this one. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2133#comment_117 Why did you drop the iris business? I mean, I'm glad that you did (unlike Prof Daugman who must have been disapointed) but did you ever share your thinking as to why it was not such a good idea? http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2098#comment_116 ....thus makiong the world a better place even tho the prisons will be even more overcrowded. How big is this sort of problem now - why not tell us here? It's our money, and our society. We're not the enemy, you know. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2097#comment_115 In Parliament they have really cool coppers who can recognise all the MPs. And in my village post office they know who I am. That works really well. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2093#comment_114 ...which we promised we'd have sorted y 2005 and failed to.<br /><br />This whole initiative would seem a lot less sinister if it were a government name & address service - a multi-channel customer helpdesk which listened to your circumstances and undertook to keep informed every part of govenment that needed to know. Yes sir, I'll make sure the doctor, the health visitor etc are all informed and I'll have your TV licence transferred." http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2082#comment_113 I need independent expert help here, to guide me as to whether this makes sense. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2076#comment_112 I think Phil is again right. <br /><br />Who are these officials who can see the whole record - what sort of job title in what sort of organisation?<br /><br />Also I'd start to feel better about these people if there was a degree of honesty about the extent to which there have already been "corrupt insider" problems, and how this is going to be differernt in future. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2074#comment_111 Important for you maybe. "Customers" wont give a damn, and the only way you'll incentivise them is with the draconian penalities. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2072#comment_110 My guess, based on hearsay only, is that these are two of the the least accurate databases you could find. If you want accuracy they'd do far better to head over to Experian and Equifax. But dont expect to learn much from them about how a government can earn public trust. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2070#comment_109 Is this assertion based on evidence?<br /><br />I'd think public confidence will require a belief that the information is minimal and proportionate for the purposes envisaged. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2068#comment_108 Well bully for you. Should we buy shares in PVS? Sounds like a nice little monopoly.<br /><br />I dont sense any grown-up communication about the level of fraudulent applications for driver licences, bank accounts etc. I feel this statement is just self-serving and smug. Wouldnt it be less patronising and more effective to share the problem?<br /><br />I wish I didnt feel this negative and supicious about this public service but...I do. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2066#comment_107 "ever evolving set of identity checking services??" These start to sound like the ravings of an identity fetishist. We want efficient state services. We want to transact safely online. We dont want the state to do any more than it has to. I am surprised by the depth of cultural alientation I feel from the authors of this work. Yet we live in the same country and probably mostly want the same things... http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2051#comment_106 The Scots are going to love this. Particularly if the wee pretendy parliament highlights the uselessness of the loathsome token by giving it no role in access to public services. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2050#comment_105 This point of view is so ID-Scheme-centric! And ID management should be user-centric or citizen-centric in design. That's government policy. If ID managment were thus designed, then I suspct the Scheme would not be a part of daily life at all. Daily life would be more efficient and hass-free, and most identity management activity would happen in the background without user intervention and aggravation. People, you are coming from a Bad Place, and have much to learn before you are enlightened. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2045#comment_104 These are run by Siemens and seem to have been doing OK after a rocky start. I dont understand why our passports have to ost so much more than everyone else's. Are they better in some way, or is it just rip-off Britain?<br /><br />I dont understand: what are the implications of using a PKI? http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2044#comment_103 ...so this sounds like starting a new database on the CIS which is run by EDS. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2040#comment_102 I wish they'd acknowledge that there are perfectly valid uses for multiple identities. It would give me a sense of dealing with people who understand there is more to life than terrorism and paedophilia. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2038#comment_101 I suppose this means DVLA inter alia. I wonder why they dont just say so? http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2036#comment_100 If IPS tries to call me a customer for its ID Scheme they may get an irate response. <br /><br />Customers have a choice. It was a such a pleasure this week to cancel all payments to Sky. They delay, procrastinate, wriggle and squirm, try to sell you broadband and telephony. But no,I just dont want to give them more money, and I wont. That's what it feels like to e a customer. <br /><br />Nor do I want to be summonsed to interview, fingerprinted, iris scanned (or have they dropped that?) charged money for some tool to let differerent bits of government link up my life in ways I dont desire. But am I a customer here? I doubt it. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2035#comment_99 Here's where the credit-referencing agencies (which are already way ahead of where government is) come in, as well as the statistical specialists. There's so much that can be done here - this is why we need good intentions, transparency and informed consent. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2033#comment_98 As Phil noted above, there's all the difference in the world between how we'llapply for a passport now and what's planned for the future. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2023#comment_97 Or is this a change? I suppose it cant be because this is just a policy paper and the Act is a law. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2012#comment_96 Man, what a drag this sounds. And I fear Phil is right. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2010#comment_95 "Defraud" seems an odd word to use here. Doesnt it mean get money or something valuable from someone by trickery? But we're not getting anything of value here, we're just being forced through an unwelcome and intrusive bureaucratic process.<br /><br />Should I be thinking in terms of how desirable green cards are? Or is the idea that life will be made so miserable for non-ID-cardholders that we'll desperately want one, and do anything to get one including defraud the system? http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/1995#comment_94 Do not overook social acceptability. If it fails at that level (as I suspect it will) then it is a total failure. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/1996#comment_93 I'm just SO FAR from believing that these are the words we will end up using. If I could "sell futures" based on some measure of the waste of money and the dreadful customer experience, I would. And this whole venture seems to me to have been an integrity-free zone since the day it was mooted.<br /><br />I'll force myslef to keep an open mind and if ever I'm persuaded or mollified, I may look back on this post and see how far I've come. <br /><br />But I think it's far more likely that the Scheme will fail, or if it goes through I'll look back and see we were right to be sceptical and should have done more, more constructively and earlier. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/1988#comment_92 It would help we to understad what they're tring to say if we had some examples. Eg do they mean<br /><br />Bad choices: - to enter the UK illegaly - to work here when youre meant to be a tourist - to refuse to register or pay for an ID card - to commit GBH or rape, or to let off bombs - to only eat four portions of veg a day, and to smoke fags, or dope?<br /><br />Good choices: - to vote in elections - to live a crime-free life - to have a healthy diet and take exercise - to be meticulous about bureaucratic procedures to do with travel, tax, welfare etc - to live n a more environmentally friendly way eg use public transport better<br /><br />What do they actually mean? http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/1984#comment_91 I think IPS will find it extremely difficult to come through this process with its good customer service reputation intact. I think in hindsight this aim will appear overoptimistic. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/1978#comment_90 If the problem is the crime, is there evidence that this is the best and most cost-effective solution? http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/1975#comment_89 I think that's fair comment. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/1974#comment_88 But hang on- won't most personal identity data be managed by people for themselves? Surely IPS need concern itself only with the minimum necessary for the state to do its job. This sounds ominously universal, therefore overambitious and inappropriate. If its aim were phrased in a more reasonable and restricted way at this stage I'd be less prickly about it. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/2113#comment_87 As Bob Blakley put it: <blockquote>"The motivation for putting biometrics into passports is that better identification will help in "the war on terror". If the problem in the war on terror were preventing known terrorists from crossing national borders at official checkpoints using genuine passports issued in their own names, biometric passports might help........How much taxpayer money are you willing to spend on biometric passports before you know whether you believe this or not?"</blockquote> (from Ceci n'est pas un Bob- http://notabob.blogspot.com/2005/08/identity-is-story.html) http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/1977#comment_86 Of course there is also the possiblilty of an increase in fraud. It is going to be much more profitable for the criminal when to gain any credence he only has to produce one form of identity and the person who's identity they stole is going to have a very difficult time proving it was not him/her who obtained the service or product. ID cards are not going to enhance peoples safety, just make their lives miserable. http://www.commentonthis.com/idaction/comments/1976#comment_85 The ID will NOT stop terrorism, forget the fakes that will appear most of the 'terrorists' will have legitimate cards, so how is this going to stop them!<br /><br />ID's were removed after the war following public outcry, now the government are trying to introduce them anyway they can, why? Even now they are compling a data base by the back door, anyone who is involved with the police can have their biometric information taken and they are fingerprinting our children in over 3,500 schools already see www.theregister.co.uk